NSGP dead?/Racing Game Discussion

[przemator]

How on earth can I compete with this...
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011...erent-f1-game/

Seeing how Codemasters totally screwed up the F1 2010 PC version (I uninstalled it after first race), I expect more of the same here.

I hate how today's PC games are just poor console ports. All that matters in games now is flashy stuff and social networking integration. Imagine this:

New codemasters browser-based game F1VILLE! "You are out of tyres, add a post on facebook to obtain a new set!"

[Cyrex]

Seeing how Codemasters totally screwed up the F1 2010 PC version (I uninstalled it after first race), I expect more of the same here.

I hate how today's PC games are just poor console ports. All that matters in games now is flashy stuff and social networking integration. Imagine this:

New codemasters browser-based game F1VILLE! "You are out of tyres, add a post on facebook to obtain a new set!"

First time I TOTALLY agree with you!!
Imagine this in F1VILLE: " Your friend Peter Santamaria-Woods just sent you a gift! A new set of wet tyres! "

[peter-27]

You should instead be asking whether if you put the same effort into NSGP as has gone into NSS it could have the same popularity.

Couldn't agree more!

And BTW...the game mentioned from Codi, if i understood right its only a managing game, theres no driving involved or am i wrong?

I think your right, but it does mention top down racing?

I hope that you wrote this with sarcasm! Don't let me get started with F1 2010 please! But yes, it's awsome F1 game, because last F1 game was 10 years ago! They said that F1 2010 is simulation? NSGP is better simulation than F12010! If it was made by Indie team I will agree it's OK, but CodeMasters with millions in their pockets?I don't think so..

Consdering the development time it's a great starting point! The next one will be much improved though

Plus, being a racing simulation geek i need to correct you ... at the time of release it was 7 years since the last F1 game, not 10

[RaphJam]

I don't see anything on that report saying you can create tracks or mods in such game.

[Alex Reeves]

How on earth can I compete with this...
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011...erent-f1-game/

The easiest way to "compete" with this is to get there first. There's massive amounts of recommendations and tweaks, and, well, NSGP is now quite old. However, the fundmentals of the game are still very sound, and there's a LOT of things that can be done to improve the fundamentals, many of which we've covered in recommendation/wishlist threads. Most of these things aren't hard to code. There's a loyal user base and a known commitment to online play and competitions here. Codies don't know how to make a top-down racing game, you've already got one built and working. If anything, this should be motivation to get in before their release and set the benchmark.

You've already got a template with the way that NSS5 has been built as an hybrid online game. Doing the same to NSGP is possible, and actually capable of more online interaction if designed properly. I'll give you a really simple example - make it possible for people to upload their race replays, and use these as opposing players in hybrid NSGP seasons. This allows for genuine online competition in an offline context, and is guaranteed to keep the game fresh for a long time, as every race and every season will be different. "Divisions" can exist based on recorded times, so that as you improve, you race against better simmed racers. If constant online race and lap leaderboards are kept, then I guarantee you this can run for years.

My pipedream would be hybridised AI where instead of race replays, the game is able to take your individual racing lines and pit strategies and adapt the AI's racing lines and pits to match yours. This would give infinite replayability in a single player game, and if the AI files could be uploaded would provide an very large racer database for other people to race against.

Both of these are codeable advancements, and go way beyond anything that codies would do as a browser freebie. You've kept NSS going in the path of FIFA and PES franchises, honestly, this is much, much less of a threat.

[peter-27]

The easiest way to "compete" with this is to get there first. There's massive amounts of recommendations and tweaks, and, well, NSGP is now quite old. However, the fundmentals of the game are still very sound, and there's a LOT of things that can be done to improve the fundamentals, many of which we've covered in recommendation/wishlist threads. Most of these things aren't hard to code. There's a loyal user base and a known commitment to online play and competitions here. Codies don't know how to make a top-down racing game, you've already got one built and working. If anything, this should be motivation to get in before their release and set the benchmark.

You've already got a template with the way that NSS5 has been built as an hybrid online game. Doing the same to NSGP is possible, and actually capable of more online interaction if designed properly. I'll give you a really simple example - make it possible for people to upload their race replays, and use these as opposing players in hybrid NSGP seasons. This allows for genuine online competition in an offline context, and is guaranteed to keep the game fresh for a long time, as every race and every season will be different. "Divisions" can exist based on recorded times, so that as you improve, you race against better simmed racers. If constant online race and lap leaderboards are kept, then I guarantee you this can run for years.

My pipedream would be hybridised AI where instead of race replays, the game is able to take your individual racing lines and pit strategies and adapt the AI's racing lines and pits to match yours. This would give infinite replayability in a single player game, and if the AI files could be uploaded would provide an very large racer database for other people to race against.

Both of these are codeable advancements, and go way beyond anything that codies would do as a browser freebie. You've kept NSS going in the path of FIFA and PES franchises, honestly, this is much, much less of a threat.

This guy has written everything that needs to be said perfectly

So Si, are you going to rise to the challenge?

[King Rob]

If proof was needed about how commited we all are to NSGP have a look at this picture....



look how close it has gotten....

[Alfonso]

If proof was needed about how commited we all are to NSGP have a look at this picture....



look how close it has gotten....

Agreed 200%!!!!!!

We want/need NSGP2!!! And you Simon are the only one who can make it!

[siread]

If proof was needed about how commited we all are to NSGP have a look at this picture....

Sweet! But you have to understand, the game would need to appeal to more than just the hardcore fans. You wanna know the total sales figure for NSGP? 2,335. Ok, that's 4 times more than New Star Tennis, but it's half of what NSS2 sold, 5 times less than NSS3, and NSS5 has already done over 1,400. (We won't talk about NSS4. ) Now I understand that it was the first game in the series and I need to build a fan base but I'm in a tricky situation. One, I need to think about developing games for mobile platforms because making indie games that don't get accepted by Steam is a really tough place to be right now. Two, I need to invest heavily in improving the appearance of NSGP because its biggest drawback in my opionion is how it looks - most gamers probably don't even give it a second glance. (A real shame we didn't find an artist modder. ) Three, I ain't no network coder. In other words, I'm not sure how to improve the online multiplayer without getting some outside help and/or rebuilding the whole system.

Then along come Codemasters no doubt stealing all of our best ideas offering a perfect 3D realisation of each track and car from an overhead perspective. I mean, damn, I wanna play their game too, it looks stunning, so who is gonna play NSGP2 aside from you guys?

[Alfonso]

...Two, I need to invest heavily in improving the appearance of NSGP because its biggest drawback in my opionion is how it looks - most gamers probably don't even give it a second glance. (A real shame we didn't find an artist modder. ) Three, I ain't no network coder. In other words, I'm not sure how to improve the online multiplayer without getting some outside help and/or rebuilding the whole system.

Then along come Codemasters no doubt stealing all of our best ideas offering a perfect 3D realisation of each track and car from an overhead perspective. I mean, damn, I wanna play their game too, it looks stunning, so who is gonna play NSGP2 aside from you guys?

All the guys that will be disappointed with Codemasters´s game! Which will be a big group i can assure you!! The release of the game from codemasters can even be a unique chance to advertise NSGP2 to a big crowd, really!!! Think about it...."We" just have to find someone who could help you out with coding specially the online part. I wouldnt say its so difficult to find or?

Plus...you will have free advertisement from all of us that play the game, guarantied!

[Cyrex]

Sweet! But you have to understand, the game would need to appeal to more than just the hardcore fans. You wanna know the total sales figure for NSGP? 2,335. Ok, that's 4 times more than New Star Tennis, but it's half of what NSS2 sold, 5 times less than NSS3, and NSS5 has already done over 1,400. (We won't talk about NSS4. ) Now I understand that it was the first game in the series and I need to build a fan base but I'm in a tricky situation. One, I need to think about developing games for mobile platforms because making indie games that don't get accepted by Steam is a really tough place to be right now. Two, I need to invest heavily in improving the appearance of NSGP because its biggest drawback in my opionion is how it looks - most gamers probably don't even give it a second glance. (A real shame we didn't find an artist modder. ) Three, I ain't no network coder. In other words, I'm not sure how to improve the online multiplayer without getting some outside help and/or rebuilding the whole system.

Then along come Codemasters no doubt stealing all of our best ideas offering a perfect 3D realisation of each track and car from an overhead perspective. I mean, damn, I wanna play their game too, it looks stunning, so who is gonna play NSGP2 aside from you guys?

How STEAM decide what indie game should take or not? I see on STEAM that you "Super Laser Racer" is there for 3,99 euros! And why they didn't take a NSGP also? There is almost 3 million people playing over STEAM every day, so putting NSGP there can be a good profit, or STEAM ( read: fat Gabe Newell ) need also to be paid in front so that they can published yours indie game?

[przemator]

Dear Simon

I think it's good to find a niche in this overcrowded world of gaming. Nowadays everybody's making silly web-based flash games or silly touchscreen mobile games. However, I believe there still is a lot of PC/laptop owners, who would love a game that focuses on playability.

About the network model. Now everybody drives their own race in online mode of NSGP, i.e. there are small differences in car positions between each client. In my opinion, the game should be centralized from the server side, all collissions should be done there, each player should see the same thing on their screen. To accomodate network latency, some prediction should be made based on rival car speed / position on track.

For example: If data sent from server to me is expected to travel 100 ms and my response travels for another 100 ms, my local game should render rival cars in positions they will be in 200 ms (based on speed, raceline etc.). This way I will know how to react. Of course, the worse the ping = the bigger the lag = the worse the prediction.

To attract more players, I think there should be a dedicated server running at all times, where DEMO owners could race a couple of free races, after which they would have to buy the game. Some web based ranking list would also help. Imagine: I raced 10 races with my demo account, I can see myself on the online leaderboard, I want to race more, I buy the game.

Finally, I think the game would benefit a lot if YOU made the game with the help of the NSGPOC community . These guys have good ideas and the right feel of what gaming should be.

[Alex Reeves]

Sweet! But you have to understand, the game would need to appeal to more than just the hardcore fans. You wanna know the total sales figure for NSGP? 2,335. Ok, that's 4 times more than New Star Tennis, but it's half of what NSS2 sold, 5 times less than NSS3, and NSS5 has already done over 1,400. (We won't talk about NSS4. ) Now I understand that it was the first game in the series and I need to build a fan base but I'm in a tricky situation. One, I need to think about developing games for mobile platforms because making indie games that don't get accepted by Steam is a really tough place to be right now. Two, I need to invest heavily in improving the appearance of NSGP because its biggest drawback in my opionion is how it looks - most gamers probably don't even give it a second glance. (A real shame we didn't find an artist modder. ) Three, I ain't no network coder. In other words, I'm not sure how to improve the online multiplayer without getting some outside help and/or rebuilding the whole system.

Then along come Codemasters no doubt stealing all of our best ideas offering a perfect 3D realisation of each track and car from an overhead perspective. I mean, damn, I wanna play their game too, it looks stunning, so who is gonna play NSGP2 aside from you guys?

I hear you about the indie game scene and steam support. But looking through the list of games on Steam, SLR is just about the only top-down racer on there! Now I don't know what your SLR sales from Steam were (I know I bought it through Steam!) but it says that for this to be successful, you'd probably need to get it on there. Otherwise I'd totally agree, the mobile space is the place to go (sadly...).

However I don't think it's the graphical style that is the "problem" with NSGP. The problem from my perspective is that the experience of the game (outside of online tournaments) was pretty limited. The career mode wasn't hard to beat, even at the expert levels. The online leaderboards created some artificial competition, but were limited in that it only allowed for best lap sharing, and you needed to manipulate the career mode if you wanted to try and challenge on that. As you've already shown with NSS5, there's a lot more that can be done in a pseudo-online competitive mode to keep people engaged and motivated for variety. There's half a dozen reasonably standard racing modes that many other racing games have done, and done well, that could be incorporated with a tweak of the current game mechanics. Let me list some examples -

- Race against Ghosts. Ghosts already exist as they are used in practice mode. Saving replays (which could easily extend to ghosts) also exists because it's used in race and quali modes. A ghost (or, ideally, a set of ghosts) could be used to set up an "online" race. Games that use this sort of race model include Mario Kart on Wii, Trials 2 and I'm sure several others. Look at how long people have played Trials 2 with those leaderboards and Mario Kart Wii's matched ghost races are still played. This could be done for a single lap, single race or even a career!

- Replay-based challenges. Generally uses this model, where you register on the race site, and then have a period of time to race and submit your replay with an agreed race setup. Generally is at least 10 years old, and has terrible graphics, but still many many racers play it and it is extremely competitive. The latest rev of Generally even has the ability to consolidate all the replay ghosts so that the "race" can be viewed by all.

- The actual online code isn't terrible, although it has its rough patches. However, it's not the network code that needs fixing most, it's the options within the online modes. Simple things, like creating some variety for the online car capabilities (SLR does this, so it must be able to be done!). Different options for qualilying and/or free practice. Changing online host preferences within the engine. The SLR-style chat engine. Maybe even the network code from SLR, if it's any better than the NSGP one (actually I think that NSGP is more latency tolerant than SLR, but that could just be because SLR online made weapons unusable and exposed the code a lot more!). The point here is that there's a LOT more that could be done to refine and add variety to the online experience. Trackmania is a great game to steal ideas from about persistent online server models, as well as things like online comp creation, online records and track downloading. All of these aren't far from what exist today, but just require porting parts of the existing game, or things from SLR and/or NSS5 and adapting them.

In summary, the key to longevity (and sales!) is VARIETY and COMMUNITY. Particularly with a low-tech game, gameplay will trump prettiness. As an indie, you'll never compete in the prettiness or extreme tech stakes, but if the gameplay is fun and the number of challenges is varied and changing, then that's what keeps people engaged. The racing fraternity tend to be very loyal to an engine if the underlying game is good. Re-Volt, for example, still has people designing tracks and running online comps as well as revamping the game a decade on. GP Legends, even the venerable Microprose GP still have people who support it. Codies' browser-based effort will be forgotten in a year, if not less.

[Sida79]

One, I need to think about developing games for mobile platforms because making indie games that don't get accepted by Steam is a really tough place to be right now. Two, I need to invest heavily in improving the appearance of NSGP because its biggest drawback in my opionion is how it looks - most gamers probably don't even give it a second glance. (A real shame we didn't find an artist modder. ) Then along come Codemasters no doubt stealing all of our best ideas offering a perfect 3D realisation of each track and car from an overhead perspective. I mean, damn, I wanna play their game too, it looks stunning, so who is gonna play NSGP2 aside from you guys?

I agree about the looks completely, but isn't that contradictory to the other 2 statements in the quote? On a mobile platform I'd want something pretty and well-coded, I'd easily find games there that would trump the gameplay of NS products (assuming a non-revolutionary implementation) and you're almost starting from 0 in the looks department anyway. If codies game turns out great maybe we can forget about nsgp but i heavily doubt that, as making a game is not about having a good artist/programmer/whatever, it's about listening to what the community wants.

However I don't think it's the graphical style that is the "problem" with NSGP. The problem from my perspective is that the experience of the game (outside of online tournaments) was pretty limited.

Well... from a reasnoable perspective, yes, but not from the average buyer perspective. You have to target the like of people that play WOWas they are the majority

In summary, the key to longevity (and sales!) is VARIETY and COMMUNITY

I think you're on to something there There are plenty games out there that are not in NSGP league but with bigger communities. Stealing all of their good points and polishing the product would make it very complete compared to others. Certainly GP legends is there, for example, because it caters to a specific niche of ppl, etc.


btw Si, those 3d cars you started with for NSGP2 that ended up in modder's hands - those were TOO cute, much cuter than the codies screenshot cars. would be awesome if someone somewhere had them looking like that

[Alfonso]

btw Si, those 3d cars you started with for NSGP2 that ended up in modder's hands - those were TOO cute, much cuter than the codies screenshot cars. would be awesome if someone somewhere had them looking like that

You mean this one? http://www.mediafire.com/?v5511vk5byd5br9
Yes it was cute!!!