Do england create technicaly sound players

[Mad2Ad]

I hered on a radio station the other day that this former england player said that the england players have no technical qualit like the brazilians or spainish or the rest of the big international teams in the world.

i think that this is true to a certain amount

i think the reason for this is the premiership beacuse the premiership plays play by counter attacking

so the ball is given away very often however in all other leagues if you give the ball away you wont see the ball for a few minutes wereas against most teams in the premiership you know the ball may be given away soon

i belive another problem to this is that English people are TO passionate (no offence to any people from other countries if you feel that i am saying you have no passion)

like ive been to brazil and watched kids play football there and its something they do for fun and i think that this is not true in england as if you watch a kids match the players care to much about winning it means everything to them whereas in other countries they dont care as much( im really not trying to offend any on here)
in england matches you have the parents shouting and swearing at the sidelines. something i have never seen in other countries.


Please feel free to have your say on this topic

PS im not saying that peoplefrom other countries are not passionate just that they enjoy it more.

Plz say why you think what you think

[Dimitrije]

I don't know...I think it is not true.The true is just for one player and the player is - Bekcham.He is famouse just from comercials and he is very popular on women side but I don't know why...But other players are very good and they are famouse because they are realy good players (Lampard,Gerard,Drogba,Terry,Henry...and so on and so one...)

[Wednesdaylad43]

I have read from several sources valid comments on this subject. One source is from (Sir:)) Bobby Robson, another is Frank Rjikaard, another is Ron Atkinson. There are others, and I've also studied the subject myself

The problems with the English is that they are too eager to concentrate English youth players on the skills they develop from competitive play. These skills are things such as awareness, competitive edge, agression, will to win, inspiration and so on. We are talking mental skills, and the ability to develop technical skills through the playing of games against others. This is not always good, because in a competitive game, you are often switched on to the play and what is happening around you, and what you do, your choices in a game, are driven through your instinct and basic motor memory.

By that I mean that when you pass a ball, you dont have to think about it, even when you play at a level I would imagine most people who post on this board do. In a game, you see a pass, you make the pass without thinking about pulling your foot back, and executing it. It just comes naturally. That is because its in your mind as a technique you can repeat, so it just happens when you need it to. But what if this action is being performed wrong? In a game, you are just going to continue to use poor technique, because your instint tells you that is how to pass a ball, not if you are doing it right or wrong.

The Dutch believe the opposite to the English (And produce far better young players than us :)) They do not play their youth players in any kind of competitive game no matter what their age is, until they have mastered skills technically. Unless you can prove you can pass, and head, and shoot in a technically sound way, you do not play matches. This is because it is no use playing against others if you cannot do the skills on the pitch you will need to win. This way of thinking stops players from allowing themselves to constantly perform a pass or header poorly in a game because that is how they have always done it, because the way they do it has been taught to them until it right and wont fail them when put up to the riggorous pressure of professional football.

The Dutch also believe the fact that mental skills are easier to teach and will be better recieved once players are technically sound, so there is no rush to teach them at such an early age as we do in this country. By spending the early years of a players life teaching him or her how to play technically well, by the time the child is older and more mentally mature, they will learn the mental outlook to the game a lot better and a lot more comfortably.

I hope that makes sense, and I didnt repeat myself, but yes, interesting stuff, good thread man =D>

[DS]

They dont have technical quality but this dosnt mean that they are not skilled in other ways. It is not just technical abillity that counts. Look at the star players that england has like Lampard and Gerrard.

[JJU]

They dont have technical quality but this dosnt mean that they are not skilled in other ways. It is not just technical abillity that counts. Look at the star players that england has like Lampard and Gerrard.Who both happen to be technically proficient in my humble opinion. Great idea for a thread, and nice reply Wednesday Lad.

I'll give this one more thought laters when I'm not supposed to be getting ready for work!

[Mad2Ad]

I have read from several sources valid comments on this subject. One source is from (Sir:)) Bobby Robson, another is Frank Rjikaard, another is Ron Atkinson. There are others, and I've also studied the subject myself

The problems with the English is that they are too eager to concentrate English youth players on the skills they develop from competitive play. These skills are things such as awareness, competitive edge, agression, will to win, inspiration and so on. We are talking mental skills, and the ability to develop technical skills through the playing of games against others. This is not always good, because in a competitive game, you are often switched on to the play and what is happening around you, and what you do, your choices in a game, are driven through your instinct and basic motor memory.

By that I mean that when you pass a ball, you dont have to think about it, even when you play at a level I would imagine most people who post on this board do. In a game, you see a pass, you make the pass without thinking about pulling your foot back, and executing it. It just comes naturally. That is because its in your mind as a technique you can repeat, so it just happens when you need it to. But what if this action is being performed wrong? In a game, you are just going to continue to use poor technique, because your instint tells you that is how to pass a ball, not if you are doing it right or wrong.

The Dutch believe the opposite to the English (And produce far better young players than us :)) They do not play their youth players in any kind of competitive game no matter what their age is, until they have mastered skills technically. Unless you can prove you can pass, and head, and shoot in a technically sound way, you do not play matches. This is because it is no use playing against others if you cannot do the skills on the pitch you will need to win. This way of thinking stops players from allowing themselves to constantly perform a pass or header poorly in a game because that is how they have always done it, because the way they do it has been taught to them until it right and wont fail them when put up to the riggorous pressure of professional football.

The Dutch also believe the fact that mental skills are easier to teach and will be better recieved once players are technically sound, so there is no rush to teach them at such an early age as we do in this country. By spending the early years of a players life teaching him or her how to play technically well, by the time the child is older and more mentally mature, they will learn the mental outlook to the game a lot better and a lot more comfortably.

I hope that makes sense, and I didnt repeat myself, but yes, interesting stuff, good thread man =D>

yeah understand what you are saying about what the dutch do but i think that this is not the way i think you need a compromise.

think that even at a young age you need to get experience and i think playing matches gives you very valuable experience

yeah think that the most important football thing is easliy the brian if your got a good football brain then i think that you are halfway there to being a good footballer

think that another problem in english football scouts aswell is that when they look at a player they look at his attributes first then they look at how tall he is and fast and hes stamina
(yes these are important but english football teams have rejected some really good players beacuse of these things)

Nottingham forrest as ive said before rejected SWP because he was so small #-o [-( =; [-X

[JJU]

yeah think that the most important football thing is easliy the brian
May? Clough? :lol: :wink:

[Mad2Ad]

yeah think that the most important football thing is easliy the brian
May? Clough? :lol: :wink:

soz mean brain




yeah think that the most important football thing is easliy the brian
May? Clough? :lol: :wink:

soz mean brain

cause my grandads called brian #-o #-o #-o #-o

[JJU]

sorry, but still haven't had time to reply when sober.... got new job paying good money today so been out all night. Still a bloody good post, and will still reply when poss...

[DS]

Seriously england have no technical abillity....u want technical abillity? well then...go to the travel agaent and book a ticket to south america.

[Dimitrije]

Seriously england have no technical abillity....u want technical abillity? well then...go to the travel agaent and book a ticket to south america.
I don't think like that.It is true that South America have very good players but England HAVE technical abillity.

[Mad2Ad]

yeah i think i should of put som more options for the the question

think that england do but just not any were near the standards of brazil

[Soha]

english players have got good technique but they don't show it in matches, because their playing style is passing. they aren't showing their individual skills because in english teams there are playing all players in team. there are a lot of tactical discipline so everybody want to do their roles as good as they can.

[Allan]

i dont agree here in brazil football is passionate i mean every child wants to be a football player.

[Mad2Ad]

i dont agree here in brazil football is passionate i mean every child wants to be a football player.

wanting to be a footballer is not passion

i dreamt of being a footballer but no clubs wanted me :cry: :cry: :cry:

this does not mean im passionate

its lots of things like being

pride in your country
patriotism
competitiveness

loads more but i cant be bothered to type :lol:

what i was trying to say was that when you watch brazil the players seem relaxed compared to england.

[Wednesdaylad43]

The key to me for finding out if a player is technically gifted is if there technique can stand up to pressure, and I mean real pressure.

Right at the end of the orthern Ireland game, a ball broke to Owen Hargreaves, who then miscontrolled it out for a goal kick. That was real pressure, when his touch needed to be spot on, and it let him down.

You may also argue based on this opinion that a penalty shootout would be a good test of technique under pressure. Do you have the technique to confidently put a ball into the roof of the net from 12 yards? However, penalties have a lot of other contributing factors, like fatigue, confidence, atmoshpere, environment and so on, so perhaps this isnt a situation to read into too much.

If you can thread the perfect pass through a crowded box when 1-0 down in the last minute of a big game, a champions league match, a world cup qualifier. If you can time a last ditch challenge perfectly so you take all of the ball and none of the man. If you can hit a ball coming across you on the bounce crisply into the far corner of the net to win the Premiership, then yes, that is someone who is technically great. I'm not sure England has too many of these players, but I can think of a lot of them across the world.

One of them recently went to Real Madrid for a large bucket of money, now there is someone who technically is gifted 8)

[Tiago]

i dont agree here in brazil football is passionate i mean every child wants to be a football player.

wanting to be a footballer is not passion

i dreamt of being a footballer but no clubs wanted me :cry: :cry: :cry:

this does not mean im passionate

its lots of things like being

pride in your country
patriotism
competitiveness

loads more but i cant be bothered to type :lol:

what i was trying to say was that when you watch brazil the players seem relaxed compared to england.Did you ever come to Brazil to see a really big match? Like Corinthians and Palmeiras, or Inter and Grêmio? We (Corinthians supporters, but I wasn't in them at the time) 'invaded' Rio de Janeiro just to see 90 minutes of 22 men running with a ball. There were more than 1000 bus (buses?) entering the city at the same time. All of them with the Corinthians logo at the side. And flags. Now, if that isn't passion, then what is? And I'm just talking about Corinthians (but of course we are the most passionate for our club in the whole world, Corinthians is more than just a team it's kind of a religion :wink: ), if you think about all teams in Brazil, then you will see how passionate we are.

[Mad2Ad]

i dont agree here in brazil football is passionate i mean every child wants to be a football player.

wanting to be a footballer is not passion

i dreamt of being a footballer but no clubs wanted me :cry: :cry: :cry:

this does not mean im passionate

its lots of things like being

pride in your country
patriotism
competitiveness

loads more but i cant be bothered to type :lol:

what i was trying to say was that when you watch brazil the players seem relaxed compared to england.Did you ever come to Brazil to see a really big match? Like Corinthians and Palmeiras, or Inter and Grêmio? We (Corinthians supporters, but I wasn't in them at the time) 'invaded' Rio de Janeiro just to see 90 minutes of 22 men running with a ball. There were more than 1000 bus (buses?) entering the city at the same time. All of them with the Corinthians logo at the side. And flags. Now, if that isn't passion, then what is? And I'm just talking about Corinthians (but of course we are the most passionate for our club in the whole world, Corinthians is more than just a team it's kind of a religion :wink: ), if you think about all teams in Brazil, then you will see how passionate we are.

what you just said is nothing special to me this happens across the world

In european champioships
who had the most supportters
England
about 250,000 thousand english people just went to portugal for the atmosphere they diont have tickets cause they were sold out

every single match england played there were more england fans there then the other country

This includes the quarter final against PORTUGAL the home country

there were more english supporters in that ground then portugese

in the world cup 2002 there were more english supporters there then anyone else other then the home nations

i bet in germany there will be more england fans then any other
apart from german

and i bet in austria an switserland in 2008 there will be more england fans there then any other[/u]

[Mad2Ad]

The key to me for finding out if a player is technically gifted is if there technique can stand up to pressure, and I mean real pressure.

Right at the end of the orthern Ireland game, a ball broke to Owen Hargreaves, who then miscontrolled it out for a goal kick. That was real pressure, when his touch needed to be spot on, and it let him down.

You may also argue based on this opinion that a penalty shootout would be a good test of technique under pressure. Do you have the technique to confidently put a ball into the roof of the net from 12 yards? However, penalties have a lot of other contributing factors, like fatigue, confidence, atmoshpere, environment and so on, so perhaps this isnt a situation to read into too much.

If you can thread the perfect pass through a crowded box when 1-0 down in the last minute of a big game, a champions league match, a world cup qualifier. If you can time a last ditch challenge perfectly so you take all of the ball and none of the man. If you can hit a ball coming across you on the bounce crisply into the far corner of the net to win the Premiership, then yes, that is someone who is technically great. I'm not sure England has too many of these players, but I can think of a lot of them across the world.

One of them recently went to Real Madrid for a large bucket of money, now there is someone who technically is gifted 8)

i suppose you thorey proves that gerrard and carragher has technique then :lol:

[Tiago]

i dont agree here in brazil football is passionate i mean every child wants to be a football player.

wanting to be a footballer is not passion

i dreamt of being a footballer but no clubs wanted me :cry: :cry: :cry:

this does not mean im passionate

its lots of things like being

pride in your country
patriotism
competitiveness

loads more but i cant be bothered to type :lol:

what i was trying to say was that when you watch brazil the players seem relaxed compared to england.Did you ever come to Brazil to see a really big match? Like Corinthians and Palmeiras, or Inter and Grêmio? We (Corinthians supporters, but I wasn't in them at the time) 'invaded' Rio de Janeiro just to see 90 minutes of 22 men running with a ball. There were more than 1000 bus (buses?) entering the city at the same time. All of them with the Corinthians logo at the side. And flags. Now, if that isn't passion, then what is? And I'm just talking about Corinthians (but of course we are the most passionate for our club in the whole world, Corinthians is more than just a team it's kind of a religion :wink: ), if you think about all teams in Brazil, then you will see how passionate we are.

what you just said is nothing special to me this happens across the world

In european champioships
who had the most supportters
England
about 250,000 thousand english people just went to portugal for the atmosphere they diont have tickets cause they were sold out

every single match england played there were more england fans there then the other country

This includes the quarter final against PORTUGAL the home country

there were more english supporters in that ground then portugese

in the world cup 2002 there were more english supporters there then anyone else other then the home nations

i bet in germany there will be more england fans then any other
apart from german

and i bet in austria an switserland in 2008 there will be more england fans there then any other[/u]Yes, but you talking about national teams, right? Corinthians is just one team, not a country, so it's supposed to have more people in England matches than in Corinthians (because everybody in England is supposed to support England, but not everyone in Brazil supports Corinthians, in fact not everybody in São Paulo does :wink: ). Also, I was only saying that we are passionate, not that we are most passionate than anyone. You also never have seed a match of kids\teens in a championship here do you? Last one I played (for my school), we couldn't even move when we got out of the match, because everybody (from both teams) wanted so much to win. No one likes to lose here in Brazil. Of course we play lots of times just for fun but even so we do our best to win in most of the times.

[Mad2Ad]

yeah i was only trying to give you the idea

stuff like that happens across the world when liverpool won the champions league there were thousands and thousands of liverpool fans outside anfield

[Tiago]

yeah i was only trying to give you the idea

stuff like that happens across the world when liverpool won the champions league there were thousands and thousands of liverpool fans outside anfieldYes, I know. British are passionate as well. As we are. :D Now let's get back to the topic, right?

[Mad2Ad]

back to topic wat topic .....
oh yeah ermwell according to wednesdaylad gerrard and carragher have technique becuase of the pressure they were under at 3-0 down to come back and win it

most say that last year it was destined to win the champs league

[Wednesdaylad43]

I never said that because Liverpool were losing 3-0 and came back to win that the English players in Liverpool's team are technically sound at all. That was a team effort, and was in no way reflecting particular individual traits.

I am talking about game deciding moments. When you are 1-0 down, and you need that bit of something special, who is technically good enough to slam it into the top corner of the net, not the top corner of the stand. The goal Gerrard scored against Olympiakos in last leagues champs lg was technically superb, and shows the point a lot better than a team performance against AC Milan.

Now this is where we need to clarify the title of this thread a little bit. So far the discussion has been based on Jamie Carragher, oh yeah he does some good tackles. Steven Gerrard, he can score a good goal from far away, and so on and so forth. Are we asking "Can the English develop world class tecnhically gifted players?"

Or is the question based on "Can England turn out tehnically gifted players, not just at international level?"

So far everything has been answered with reference to something performed by one of Englands international players. Steven Gerrard hit the ball against Olympiakos in a difficult position, and had the technique to pull that shot off and not only get it on target, but direct it to the far corner with speed as well. If we remove our current international players, do we develop other players who would be technically good enough to have done this? Or one of the other actions I descibed in the post above, like the perfectly timed tackle or a killer pass? is perhaps more the question, so....

Still remember we are talking about pressure situations, as I still believe this is the key measure of technique, (anyone shout if they disagree) performing when it really matters and there is no margin for error type pressure. True, I'll accept we may have to define pressure differently for different players, some English players may not get to play world cup games, champs lg ect, but do these players have the technique that is relative to what big games they will play?

[Mad2Ad]

Yeah, i think the question should of been do england create world class tecnhically gifted players.

I think that you've came closest to showing what technique is its probably not jjust if you can create something from nothing when your under a lot of pressure. I think that it is lots of other things aswell.

What does dissapoint me is that a lot of other countries do things better then england does, such as:-
Brazil have better technique
Italy defend better
Germany are more organised
There are lots of things that other teams have but i cant think of anything england do better then anyone else.
Maybe theres the British bulldog spirit but i dont think the england team has this.

By the British bulldog spirit i mean like how when your down and out you just keep fighting and never give up.

I suppose an example would have to be, once again, Liverpool's comeback in Istanbul.

Ive used this as an example to many times now #-o

[DS]

This topic is gona go on forever. England player are not technicaly gifted. but this dosnt mean they are not good players. They have skills in other areas.

[Wednesdaylad43]

This topic is gona go on forever. England player are not technicaly gifted. but this dosnt mean they are not good players. They have skills in other areas.

Poor reply.

The sky is yellow, because I say it is. No reason behind it. You cant just say England arent tecnhically gifted, because you say so. Why arent they technically gifted? And yes, it should run on and on, thats why its a discussion.

And please dont let this turn into another "Well, Australian players arent technicaly gifted, my country is better than your country debate" Or I will hunt you down and do you all in, Terminator style. 8)

Top, international level, our players are technically gifted. Thats why we do make the quarter finals of major tournaments, why we have only lost 1 Qualifying game in the last 22. So back on topic, no I'm better than you banter.

[DS]

This topic is gona go on forever. England player are not technicaly gifted. but this dosnt mean they are not good players. They have skills in other areas.

Poor reply.

The sky is yellow, because I say it is. No reason behind it. You cant just say England arent tecnhically gifted, because you say so. Why arent they technically gifted?

I gave reasons in an earlier post.

[JJU]

I gave reasons in an earlier post.
You mean one of these two?

They dont have technical quality but this dosnt mean that they are not skilled in other ways. It is not just technical abillity that counts. Look at the star players that england has like Lampard and Gerrard.


Seriously england have no technical abillity....u want technical abillity? well then...go to the travel agaent and book a ticket to south america.
Can't see it myself.

Granted, other countries may produce a higher ratio of more technical players, but believe me, every country has their own Danny Mills...

[DS]

The reason the players are not technicly gifted is because of the style of play in the EPL. This is why many players do not play well in the EPL like Veron for instance.

[JJU]

Or maybe Veron didn't have the physical attributes required to cut the mustard in the EPL? He kept drifting out of games which says to me 'lack of stamina and drive' to match the EPL style of play.

It's all relative though. You can't say english players aren't technically gifted, as many of them are. Granted, the English may not be as technically gifted as the South Americas, or have the same amount of flair, but it doesn't mean they are without it at all.